Reflections: Pilgrimage
Stuart Higginbotham, Brandon Nonnemaker, and Meg McPeek meditate on pilgrimage, mindfulness and whether Arkansas is the holy land.
The Glimpses of Grace podcast is a ministry of Grace Episcopal Church in Gainesville, Georgia. We are passionate about supporting the spiritual growth of souls, and we hope these sermons and conversations meet you where you are and enrich your soul as we all continue to make meaning in the world today.
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Transcript
00:00:01:18 – 00:00:28:05
Meg
Welcome back to reflections as part of glimpses of Grace. I am Meg McPeek, the director of Children of Grace preschool here at Grace Episcopal. And reflections is part of our new podcasting that we’re doing here at Grace. It’s myself and Stuart and Brandon, and we’re grateful to come together in this time to share our reflections as things come up in our world.
00:00:28:07 – 00:00:31:05
Stuart
Absolutely. A lot has happened since we met last time.
00:00:31:07 – 00:00:31:24
Meg
It has.
00:00:31:24 – 00:00:33:11
Stuart
We took a trip.
00:00:33:14 – 00:00:34:15
Meg
We did.
00:00:34:17 – 00:00:35:10
Brandon
It was a great trip.
00:00:35:10 – 00:00:44:20
Stuart
It was a great trip. Yeah. We went to Slovenia. Yeah.
00:00:44:23 – 00:00:52:07
Stuart
No, we took five youth to New York City on a pilgrimage trip. It was great.
00:00:52:09 – 00:01:16:29
Meg
It really was great. As someone who did not grow up in the Episcopal Church. I never had the opportunity to go on a pilgrimage. And so it was a wonderful experience for me to have as an adult and a parent and the parent of a kiddo who is in our youth activities, but who is not yet in high school to see what my kids have to look forward to.
00:01:17:07 – 00:01:18:18
Meg
It was a great time.
00:01:18:20 – 00:01:25:19
Brandon
Right. I’ve only been on pilgrimage to, as an adult, to the Holy Land. So this is a very, a very different trip.
00:01:26:16 – 00:01:28:22
Stuart
Arkansas. You went to Arkansas?
00:01:28:25 – 00:01:32:26
Brandon
Arkansas: The Holy Land.
00:01:32:29 – 00:01:49:07
Stuart
It’s great. Now, we did have a blast. There we went. It was this. The whole piece was around art and the sacred. Looking at how we how we perceive God in spirits, presence within art and within, theater.
00:01:49:10 – 00:01:50:04
Brandon
Spaces.
00:01:50:11 – 00:01:51:03
Stuart
Spaces.
00:01:51:10 – 00:01:52:06
Meg
00:01:52:09 – 00:01:58:15
Stuart
We totally nerded-out at the public library, which is wonderful.
00:01:58:17 – 00:02:00:10
Brandon
Got lost in Central Park.
00:02:00:11 – 00:02:01:11
Stuart
We did.
00:02:01:13 – 00:02:05:00
Brandon
Thank goodness we had an Eagle Scout with us right.
00:02:05:03 – 00:02:12:23
Stuart
Oh yes. No thank thank goodness for that. So yeah. So it’s been two months I think, since we’ve done the podcast.
00:02:12:26 – 00:02:15:29
Meg
I was going to say two months is our trip? Seems like it was just yesterday.
00:02:16:02 – 00:02:17:22
Stuart
Know I know.
00:02:17:24 – 00:02:44:09
Meg
It has been two months. And I think when we left last we were talking about we actually talked about pilgrimage. We did it and I’m not even sure it was directly connected to our trip to New York, but just about pilgrimage in general. And I think what I pose to both of you and all of us was it often pilgrimage is constructed as a journey to a holy place.
00:02:44:11 – 00:02:51:24
Meg
And I’m curious, I think what we had discussed was my curiosity around what pilgrimage means to us and our own faith walk.
00:02:51:26 – 00:03:13:15
Brandon
Yeah. I mean, we get caught up, even just in this conversation now. You know, we’re talking about the endpoint. We went to New York City, went to Arkansas, the Holy Land. But pilgrimage is not about the final destination. Don’t you think?
00:03:13:22 – 00:03:19:27
Meg
Oh, yeah. I’m a big fan of the phrase “the journey is the destination.”
00:03:20:00 – 00:03:38:15
Stuart
Well, and even planning when. So we’re taking a trip to Greece next fall. And even like at the end of this month first of next month. Like you know the pilgrimage starts when the group is set. And the group starts doing their planning and the group starts meeting and looking at how we’ll shape that time and what that will look like.
00:03:38:15 – 00:04:01:20
Stuart
So I mean the pilgrimage is not about just when we get on the plane to go. It’s about all of it. Like what? What do you ground yourself in? You know what? What do you notice? What you see about your own hearts yearning. What you hope for. You know all of those what you’re letting go of. To, you know, be able to go.
00:04:01:22 – 00:04:11:29
Stuart
All of that which is another piece of it. You know it costs. Yeah. It costs time. It costs money, it costs, you know, how do you invest in this, which I think is a great way to look at life as a journey.
00:04:17:25 – 00:04:21:20
Brandon
And I would say too…
00:04:21:22 – 00:04:51:26
Brandon
Pilgrimage doesn’t end in a sense. Oh you know our time in New York City looking at art, looking at the met seeing Six, even. It’s still, it’s still working on me and not to speak for forever but we had new beginnings this weekend and that was a big part of Forever’s Talk. And how the, how pilgrimage is still is still working.
00:04:51:28 – 00:04:59:04
Stuart
Oh yeah. Because it does reframe it does re align. I mean we hope that you know.
00:04:59:06 – 00:05:27:09
Meg
Well absolutely I think but to your the cost or like what do you give up. I mean I think so often we will walk through our world especially a lot of people career wise and say, well, what’s my return on my investment? And it’s invaluable. Like, there’s not there’s not a monetary, there’s not a there’s not a number you can put on the gifts that I have been that I’ve brought away with me from our trip to New York, which every time we say that, I just have to say, I think about the Old El Paso commercial.
00:05:27:11 – 00:05:31:03
Meg
“New York City!”
00:05:31:06 – 00:05:32:24
Stuart
So, so true.
00:05:32:26 – 00:05:56:08
Meg
But the gifts that I have and that I, that I still reference pretty much now, like on a weekly basis of like how I watched all of us, like, push ourselves out of comfort zones and things. I took away the different ways I look at things. The celebration I have for our young people, like, and what they have taken away and watching them grow and that relationship.
00:05:56:11 – 00:06:04:03
Meg
There’s that. I think it’s hard because sometimes you want something so concrete that’s this. You’re not able to capture it that way.
00:06:04:06 – 00:06:30:03
Stuart
And one of the things I’ve been thinking about since our time there is how when you are on a pilgrimage, it’s seeing life as a journey that you, you change and grow. We change and grow. And a big piece of that for me, I think. And I just had lunch with, someone and we talked about this, was that our image of God changes and grows.
00:06:30:05 – 00:06:51:12
Stuart
And I’ve thought about that a lot since, since we’ve gotten back. Like our how that trip, even though it was like just not just but it was a four day trip. It wasn’t a hugely long trip. Even that, like there were parts of that where that have continued to help reshape what my image of God is. And I think that’s really important for me.
00:06:51:14 – 00:06:54:26
Stuart
Like what I notice, what I pay attention to.
00:06:54:29 – 00:06:57:15
Meg
So what does that look like for you on your pilgrimage?
00:06:57:18 – 00:07:30:08
Stuart
So I’ll tell you, the part that stood out to me from the trip was the, mandalas. I still go back to that. I mean, I took photos of it and I go back to look and say there was such a powerful moment when we were in that, gallery space looking at those mandalas which were centuries old, and that they, in and of themselves are a 2D representation of a 3D or multiple dimensional reality.
00:07:30:10 – 00:07:54:10
Stuart
And that really hit me. You know, I mean, I’ve done work with them in the past, but being there in that space brought it all back to say, like what? What? What am I seeing? What am I not seeing? How am I? What are my perceptions? How are they limited? And what are the things that I see on my journey, on my pilgrimage that actually broaden them?
00:07:54:13 – 00:07:57:11
Stuart
And what is it in myself that sometimes does not want them to be?
00:07:57:14 – 00:07:58:19
Meg
00:07:58:21 – 00:08:13:19
Stuart
You know, there’s parts of that that I would prefer, you know, to keep what I know, to keep them familiar. Yeah. And so all of that’s been swirling around. So I go back to my phone and just flip through those photos.
00:08:13:21 – 00:08:17:06
Brandon
Yeah, I saw one saved as my. Yeah, my wallpaper.
00:08:17:08 – 00:08:44:17
Stuart
And I think it’s such a wonderful image to kind of, you know, reflect on when we think about whatever, whatever image that we have of God. You know, which that in and of itself is a wonderful space to step into and kind of see where folks are. Yeah. That’s what stood out to me from it. I just loved being in that space.
00:08:44:19 – 00:08:52:26
Meg
It was a really powerful space. I found myself not wanting to leave it as opposed to like, walking through the rest of the museum, I really lingered.
00:08:53:24 – 00:08:58:15
Meg
It’s the first place I sat down the whole time we were there.
00:08:58:17 – 00:09:26:22
Stuart
Yeah. And just noticing and there was another space above that one which was, they had taken statues and integrated them with poetry, but it was just this little like alcove hallway that you walked in. And the way that they had done that was so, so powerful. So that’s where I’m hooked right now, is how my image of God as being poked and prodded.
00:09:32:01 – 00:09:41:19
Stuart
As I drink out of my mug that Matt gave me and it says Hail Mary full of grace, punch the devil in the face, which is a fantastic mug to drink to.
00:09:41:21 – 00:09:42:22
Meg
I mean it makes you really happy.
00:09:45:10 – 00:09:50:04
Meg
What about you. I ask because I don’t know if I have an image.
00:09:51:23 – 00:09:53:10
Brandon
From the trip specifically.
00:09:53:13 – 00:10:07:11
Meg
No. Just like when we’re talking about like being on our own walk and like having these images of God of like or what may push us to think about it, to think about those images differently. I don’t know if I have images. Do you?
00:10:07:13 – 00:10:49:03
Brandon
Not so much an image. For me, I think it’s. This is, like, really broad, right? But about breath. And I don’t I don’t really know what else to say about that, but, you know, even even thinking back to our trip, right? Like just moving through space and, the, the met in particular, you know, I purposely I wanted to be alone, in that space and just walking, breathing, wandering.
00:10:49:06 – 00:11:05:21
Brandon
And you know that section with the statues in the poems? I didn’t even see that. There’s so much to see. So. And, you know, it’s so much depth in that, in that building.
00:11:05:23 – 00:11:07:09
Stuart
Yeah. So much to experience.
00:11:07:09 – 00:11:14:21
Brandon
But I love this being being aware of breath. And the wandering and the wandering.
00:11:14:24 – 00:11:15:05
Stuart
Yeah.
00:11:15:11 – 00:11:18:07
Meg
Wonder wonder see smell.
00:11:18:09 – 00:11:20:16
Stuart
Oh that’s interesting.
00:11:20:18 – 00:11:24:06
Brandon
Connected to breath.
00:11:24:09 – 00:11:32:27
Meg
Yes. In a way. In a way. But so my whole life I have this very strong connection to a woodsmoke smell.
00:11:34:01 – 00:11:39:02
Meg
I don’t know why I didn’t even have a fireplace growing up.
00:11:39:05 – 00:11:40:16
Stuart
That’s interesting.
00:11:40:18 – 00:11:41:27
Brandon
Right. Did you camp a lot.
00:11:41:29 – 00:11:42:24
Meg
No.
00:11:42:26 – 00:11:45:19
Stuart
Did you just burn things when no one was watching?
00:11:45:22 – 00:11:46:28
Meg
No.
00:11:47:00 – 00:11:49:14
Stuart
I did. Tell me.
00:11:49:17 – 00:11:56:14
Meg
Well, I was fascinated, like trying to rub two sticks together to make fire. I gave out very quickly. I did not have the stamina to make that happen.
00:11:56:16 – 00:11:58:11
Stuart
I was there.
00:11:58:14 – 00:12:27:14
Meg
No. It was. There’s something about a wood smoke smell. And what I find interesting, isn’t it? Yeah it is. It is a grounding piece for me, but it’s also one that causes me to instantly reflect on my life in the moment, if that makes sense. Like so when the seasons change. I have a very excited feeling when I can, when I’m driving through town and I roll down my windows and it’s just there like I can just and I’m like, hello.
00:12:27:16 – 00:12:53:02
Meg
But in that same moment I’m like, where am I? So it’s happened my whole life. So it’s comforting, but it’s also one that causes me to instantaneously like it is in some ways a be here now. But it is also a where are you like an are you still are you still staying consistent with being open to where you want to be?
00:12:53:04 – 00:13:00:04
Stuart
That’s there. And because if I had here and you say breath in here, you say smelt mine. I think mine really is if if I pushed it touch.
00:13:01:02 – 00:13:19:29
Stuart
But I so I was with a group reading reading a poem at the blessing of a garden last week and what I told them with, you know, with everyone feeling, not knowing what to do, what to think right now, you know, how do we make sense of this? I told this whole group of people, I said, you know, being here to bless this garden.
00:13:20:02 – 00:13:42:05
Stuart
I said, all I can really say to a lot of people now is that go home and take your shoes off and go walk like, walk on the grass, walk on the dirt. Just go stand outside. Lie down outside like you know, touch. And being grounded is so key. You know, I just love that. I just love that breath, smell, touch.
00:13:42:08 – 00:14:11:13
Meg
I also think it brings us back, at least to me, to what you were saying earlier about pushing you to really think about what’s come at challenging your thoughts, like pushing you out of a comfort zone that you would like to stay in. Because even those things for me, while they are comforting, still push me. So I wonder how on our pilgrimage we do sometimes find things that are comforting, but are they really pushing us in the direction?
00:14:11:13 – 00:14:25:23
Meg
Whether it and I use that term loosely, like literal direction, philosophically, spiritually, like how are they pushing us when we want to find comfort in them? Are we really sitting in them long enough to know where they are leading us?
00:14:25:25 – 00:14:35:05
Stuart
Or does it just reinforce some things that we’ve already felt or thought were true.
00:14:36:14 – 00:14:43:20
Meg
And this is a great time to like to to sit in these questions too. It’s a hard time to do it.
00:14:43:22 – 00:15:06:07
Stuart
It is a hard time to do. I think it’s a wonderful time. I’m thinking about you know it’s the end of the church is here on Sunday. Sunday. Which always asks us to look at some really difficult questions around loyalty and allegiance. You know, where we’re really aligned in. What are we really grounded. All of those things.
00:15:06:07 – 00:15:28:16
Stuart
And then advent season just launches us into that deep time to say, like what? What is trying to be born? That’s what keeps coming back to me. Like, you know, we’ve talked about, but what what’s trying to be born right now and how do we encourage and emphasize, you know, really facilitate that and nurture that? And how do.
00:15:28:16 – 00:15:29:15
Brandon
We.
00:15:29:17 – 00:15:37:24
Stuart
Resist it? Like, what’s that dynamic like in us? I just keep hearing that from different people.
00:15:37:25 – 00:15:42:17
Meg
It’s a spiritual Abdullah ism.
00:15:42:19 – 00:15:51:29
Stuart
Yeah. I just keep hearing that from so many people saying like for something new to be born, something old, you know, if you will, has to give way.
00:15:52:01 – 00:15:53:28
Brandon
Oh absolutely.
00:15:54:01 – 00:16:06:23
Stuart
You know, and in terms of, you know, a pilgrimage taking those steps, you, you step forward, you know, you don’t stay in the same place with every.
00:16:06:23 – 00:16:07:12
Brandon
Hello. There’s a.
00:16:07:12 – 00:16:19:28
Stuart
Goodbye. You know, you don’t. Yeah. You just don’t stay in the same place or you don’t, you hope you don’t walk in a circle. You know, but.
00:16:20:00 – 00:16:24:15
Meg
Yeah, but even then that makes me think the labyrinth. But even then, what does the circle look like?
00:16:24:22 – 00:16:25:25
Brandon
Yeah.
00:16:25:28 – 00:16:51:11
Stuart
Yeah. And I just keep hearing so many people trying to make meaning, right? And, you know, trying to make sense of things. Just this constant refrain around that. But what does this mean? How do we make sense of this? And I keep paying attention to how many spaces I found myself in with people in their 80s and 90s lately, but I’m really paying attention to.
00:16:51:17 – 00:16:53:24
Meg
00:16:53:26 – 00:17:20:29
Stuart
You know, and the really wise ones don’t discount the pinch. And say yeah I know this does feel I mean this is a pinch. This is a really hard time. You know. And we will get through it. They don’t have like a Pollyanna view of that because they really have lived and they’ve really struggled and they’ve seen how they have grown themselves you know.
00:17:21:02 – 00:17:22:09
Stuart
I think that’s key.
00:17:22:12 – 00:18:01:03
Brandon
All of this is is making me think of the importance of corporate worship. You know, even back to these ideas of, of touch and breath and, not so much smell because we don’t always have incense, but taste is connected to smell. And are coming together to, to breathe, to pray, to, to kneel, to, taste to wine taste spread to hear.
00:18:01:05 – 00:18:05:29
Stuart
You know, to chant, to listen.
00:18:06:01 – 00:18:08:10
Stuart
Oh I think it’s key.
00:18:08:12 – 00:18:37:16
Brandon
And you know it actually back to new beginnings this week. And our theme was Inside Out. And we watched and set out to and I don’t know if y’all have seen that, but the main character has these. They’re they’re emotions of joy sadness fear anger disgust I think is another one. And in this new movie, anxiety comes along and bottles up the emotions literally, you know.
00:18:37:19 – 00:19:04:24
Brandon
But what brings the main character out of anxiety, realizing how to control anxiety is these very things we’re saying. Right. Yeah. How am I feeling? The sun on my face. Where am I sitting? What what am I feeling. Under. Under my seat. Taking a breath. Where. Smelling what. Where am I in this. In this moment and that.
00:19:04:24 – 00:19:17:19
Brandon
Allowing us to get out of that if we are walking in circles. Traveling in circles. Reorienting us in the moment and going. Okay.
00:19:17:22 – 00:19:21:01
Brandon
Where’s God in this? How am I moving forward?
00:19:21:03 – 00:19:40:12
Stuart
Yeah. And I haven’t thought about it. So this, this dear friend in town Dick died and we had his funeral. Yesterday. And he was a deeply contemplative soul and he loved silence. And it was this kind of constant joke through the whole thing about how that made a lot of people really, really nervous because they don’t like to slow down.
00:19:40:13 – 00:19:43:22
Stuart
They don’t like to listen. You know, we just like to go, go, go go go. A lot.
00:19:43:22 – 00:19:45:20
Brandon
Of people. Yeah. People hate silence.
00:19:45:20 – 00:20:12:15
Stuart
So the church was full and they took such a huge risk. They actually had, I think it was four, if not five minutes of silence. Like we meditated at a funeral, and it was the most incredible experience. So I was just sitting there observing on, like, the back pew and just watching people and just feeling that space of people sharing that.
00:20:12:17 – 00:20:21:14
Stuart
And you would notice after like 30, 45 seconds people started digging in their purses like getting up, you know, paper candies, something to do.
00:20:21:16 – 00:20:23:21
Brandon
Because their skin was crawling. Yeah.
00:20:23:23 – 00:20:42:15
Stuart
But it was such a wonderful shared moment of listening, sensing, feeling, just being in that place and saying, like what? What grounds us right now? Oh, it was incredible. I’ve never been at a funeral, but now I want to have them at every funeral.
00:20:43:13 – 00:20:44:07
Stuart
You know.
00:20:44:09 – 00:21:10:06
Meg
It’s it makes me think about this weekend was an interesting time with my own mother who is easing into that age group that she was in setting a lot of time with. And we were having this conversation and I left the conversation feeling so much joy and peace, which is a wonderful thing to feel even when you get those moments.
00:21:10:07 – 00:21:32:29
Meg
It was almost like the kind of joy, like Christmas morning joy. Like if you had that, like in your when you just hit this spiritual place where you’re like, okay, like this is good, like it’s good, it’s all because of it. But it was groundedness and letting go. Living in a multi, generally generational household like I do. There was a acknowledge like we don’t have a playbook for this.
00:21:33:01 – 00:21:52:02
Meg
Yeah. And so we just got to do it. We just got to do it how we’re going to do it. And the groundedness and letting go which I find in moments of quiet and slow down. Is, is such it just, it was an moment for me in this conversation of like, oh, that’s what it is for me.
00:21:52:04 – 00:22:06:09
Meg
Like, there’s moments of quiet, those moments of smell and touch and, breath and grounded ness of like and quiet. It’s not necessarily a slowdown. It’s a grounding and letting go.
00:22:06:11 – 00:22:10:08
Stuart
Oh, what a wonderful image. Energy that we don’t have a playbook for this.
00:22:10:10 – 00:22:11:16
Meg
Yeah.
00:22:11:19 – 00:22:19:07
Brandon
Yeah. It’s one that’s critical for for pilgrimage. You’ve got to let go. You’ve got a grasp.
00:22:19:09 – 00:22:19:21
Meg
Yeah.
00:22:19:23 – 00:22:29:27
Stuart
Yeah. And for where we are right now with how people feel. You know, we don’t have to play this. Just the truth. But, The playbook.
00:22:29:29 – 00:22:46:14
Meg
Yeah. But being together, creating community, feeling the life around us, knowing that we have part or something bigger. Being able to have these rich conversations.
00:22:46:17 – 00:22:51:09
Brandon
And sensing in the moment.
00:22:51:11 – 00:23:06:18
Stuart
And the really small things like I think the, the so-called small things become really important for me. You know, like it’s really important when I get here, first thing I go when I steal, you know, coffee from you. That’s a really important thing.
00:23:06:21 – 00:23:12:01
Meg
It is it becomes important to me too. This it’s like oh where’s everybody.
00:23:12:03 – 00:23:19:00
Stuart
Just take a walk and check and steal coffee. Sit down. See how things are.
00:23:19:02 – 00:23:19:29
Brandon
Orientation.
00:23:20:05 – 00:23:33:16
Stuart
Yeah. Yeah. I just love this image of a pilgrimage. Of a journey. I think it’s really important right now.
00:23:33:18 – 00:24:04:03
Stuart
And I think framing it that way helps me because it, it let some of my anxiety around having to have a set plan and having things figured out. It gives that a place to land. And I can ask bigger or deeper questions around where I really put my trust, rather than fixating on trying to figure it out, which is just about my own control.
00:24:04:05 – 00:24:07:17
Meg
Oh yeah. And that’s hard. Yeah.
00:24:07:20 – 00:24:08:13
Stuart
Yeah.
00:24:08:16 – 00:24:12:14
Brandon
This has given me some material for Sunday for your Sunday service.
00:24:12:15 – 00:24:13:27
Stuart
Yeah. This. Yeah.
00:24:14:04 – 00:24:15:11
Meg
Stay tuned everybody.
00:24:15:12 – 00:24:19:19
Stuart
I never will be going to the Holy Land.
00:24:19:21 – 00:24:21:08
Meg
It’s afternoon.
00:24:21:11 – 00:24:37:05
Stuart
I love it. This is so, so helpful. Yeah. So, don’t know where this positions us for next time, but I like where it’s landed us now.
00:24:37:07 – 00:24:41:17
Meg
Yeah. What I’m going to talk about next time.
00:24:41:19 – 00:24:42:03
Stuart
Well I mean.
00:24:42:03 – 00:24:44:19
Brandon
Something will come up as we are.
00:24:44:22 – 00:25:05:25
Stuart
Something will come up. I think it would be advent season is such a remarkable time for deep reflection and preparation and all of that. You know. Yeah. I’ll be I’ll be curious to see what presents itself during that advents right around the corner. Yeah. Ready or not.
00:25:05:28 – 00:25:09:04
Brandon
As we light those candles, smell in the smoke.
00:25:09:06 – 00:25:10:01
Meg
That’s. You love it.
00:25:10:07 – 00:25:27:24
Stuart
How can you? It’s wonderful. I’m gonna go burn stuff when I go home. You just love it. I do. I do love it, too. Yeah. I mean, it’s deer camp season for me as a kid, and that’s. That’s all that we would do. I never really wanted to hunt. I just wanted to sit by fires. And read books and write stuff.
00:25:27:27 – 00:25:31:27
Meg
Well, and fire is a powerful meditator too.
00:25:32:00 – 00:25:36:00
Stuart
Fire gazing. Very much so.
00:25:36:02 – 00:25:48:10
Meg
Well everybody stay tuned for next time. Stay tuned for Brandon’s homily on Sunday. Yeah that’s right. Coming up soon. And I don’t know let’s dig into advent season. So it comes up for you.
00:25:48:13 – 00:25:51:03
Stuart
I think it’s great. Thank you. Yeah.